Embark on a journey with Christian rock pioneers Kemper Crabb (ArkAngel) and Frank Hart (Atomic Opera) through the landscapes of faith and sound that define Contemporary Christian Music. Host Tim Ristow guides the conversation with these two legends to uncover the genesis of this genre with Kemper during the Jesus Music era to Frank building on that legacy during the '90's, while also peering into the personal faith paths that carved their storied careers. From the vibrant energy of creating some of their best albums to the intimate reflections on how faith has interwoven with their artistry, these artists offer a compelling narrative of conviction and creativity that has left an indelible mark on the world of music.
Witness the alchemy of medieval melodies and the poetic depth of songwriting as Kemper delves into the creation of ArkAngel's "Warrior," an album that embodies the resonance of historical influences within modern Christian rock. Frank, on the other hand, brings us into his artistic metamorphosis, detailing the path that fueled his transformation into a songwriter with a mission and that lead to the formation of his band, Atomic Opera, and their four hard rocking albums: For Madmen Only (1994), Penguin Dust (1997), Alpha & Oranges (1999) and Gospel Cola (2000).
As we weave through their anecdotes and experiences, we uncover the essence of a friendship fortified by music and ministry, a bond that has catalyzed their collaborative spirit and artistic evolution.
Join host Tim Ristow and guests Kemper Crabb and Frank Hart in an episode that beckons a deeper appreciation for the interplay between creative expression and unwavering faith.
Kemper Crabb (ArkAngel)
kempercrabb.net
Frank Hart (Atomic Opera)
frankhart.com
NewChurch
newchurch.love
Embark on a journey with Christian rock pioneers Kemper Crabb (ArkAngel) and Frank Hart (Atomic Opera) through the landscapes of faith and sound that define Contemporary Christian Music. Host Tim Ristow guides the conversation with these two legends to uncover the genesis of this genre with Kemper during the Jesus Music era to Frank building on that legacy during the '90's, while also peering into the personal faith paths that carved their storied careers. From the vibrant energy of creating some of their best albums to the intimate reflections on how faith has interwoven with their artistry, these artists offer a compelling narrative of conviction and creativity that has left an indelible mark on the world of music.
Witness the alchemy of medieval melodies and the poetic depth of songwriting as Kemper delves into the creation of ArkAngel's "Warrior," an album that embodies the resonance of historical influences within modern Christian rock. Frank, on the other hand, brings us into his artistic metamorphosis, detailing the path that fueled his transformation into a songwriter with a mission and that lead to the formation of his band, Atomic Opera, and their four hard rocking albums: For Madmen Only (1994), Penguin Dust (1997), Alpha & Oranges (1999) and Gospel Cola (2000).
As we weave through their anecdotes and experiences, we uncover the essence of a friendship fortified by music and ministry, a bond that has catalyzed their collaborative spirit and artistic evolution.
Join host Tim Ristow and guests Kemper Crabb and Frank Hart in an episode that beckons a deeper appreciation for the interplay between creative expression and unwavering faith.
Kemper Crabb (ArkAngel)
kempercrabb.net
Frank Hart (Atomic Opera)
frankhart.com
NewChurch
newchurch.love
Today, on Creative Christians, two legends from Christian rock history, Kemper Krab and Frank Hart, join me to discuss music, faith, creativity and the making of some of their best albums.
Speaker 2:When I started there weren't many of us. As a matter of fact, we kind of considered Keith Greene to be a latecomer, because by the time he came along there actually was the beginning of CCM. When we started we didn't think in terms of CCM because it wasn't there. We didn't think of playing churches because they wouldn't let us in because we were playing devil music. You know, archangel's first airplay was on rock radio here in Houston and we were Christians and we looked on that as an opportunity to witness to people.
Speaker 4:What I wanted to do was I wanted to share the gospel. I wanted to do that through music, because music had informed me, it had formed me, and I wanted to be able to do that for other people. Music had made me consider things deeply. I wanted to provoke other people to the same kind of experiences.
Speaker 1:That's Kemper Krab and Frank Hart today on Creative Christians.
Speaker 4:To be in Christ and have an identity in Him above anything else. I think it's extraordinary. If you believe, God's called you, you can't walk away from that.
Speaker 1:These are stories of creative Christians. Welcome to another episode of Creative Christians, the podcast series that explores Christian creatives, their talents, their faith and what they're doing at the intersection of both. I'm your host, tim Risto. I'm so glad you've joined me. This episode is kind of a watershed moment for me in the history of this podcast series because my guests are two legends from Christian Rock Music History.
Speaker 1:I have a long association with Christian Rock, going back to about 1983 in Houston, texas, the very city where I recorded this interview. No, I never played in a band or produced an album or anything as impressive as that. I just grew up listening to Christian Rock and it was very formative in the development of not only my musical preferences but in my faith life and in providing me another tool to use as a spiritual guide. When I was a teenager, I remember listening to the Rock of Love on KSBJ FM radio something better Jesus in Houston. When I was in high school. The Rock of Love was a three-hour radio show that played nothing but the latest and best in Christian Rock. I waited all week for that three-hour window of great rock music. I would discover a new artist on that show and head out in search of their albums that very same weekend. I can't underscore enough how the influence of artists like Resurrection Band Petra, jeff Johnson, prodigal DeGarmo and Key Whiteheart and so many others were really important in my young life and continue to be even to this day. That holds equally true for my guest today. My guest today are Kemper Krab and Frank Hart.
Speaker 1:Kemper is perhaps most recognized as the founding member of the band Archangel. Their album Warrior, released in 1980, is a classic of progressive art rock. Kemper is one of the founders of early CCM or contemporary Christian music, having been a part of the Jesus music movement in the 60s and 70s and even into the 80s. Alongside artists like Larry Norman, keith Green and Love Song, among many others. Kemper has a number of great solo albums as well, including the Vigil, another classic, and Real Aquarium, personal favorite of mine. He's also front of the band. Radio Halo was a part of the band.
Speaker 1:Kademan's Call wrote the book Liberation Front Resurrecting the Church and produced a wonderful performance special that aired on PBS, titled Down in Yon Forest, featuring performances of Christmas music from the Middle Ages All great stuff. Frank Hart is founding member of the 90s rock band Atomic Opera, of which Kemper is also a member. Atomic Opera has four great rocking albums in their discography for Mad Men Only, penguin, dust, alphas and Oranges and Gospel Cola. Frank wrote a book titled Joy Ride, which we'll get into later, has a podcast titled Frank Thoughts I love that and is serving as pastor of New Church in the Houston area. Frank also has a number of great solo albums out, too many of which Kemper has also played on, and the Liturgy is perhaps my personal favorite among those, and you'll get to hear tracks from that album a bit later. In fact, you're going to hear some samples of a lot of each of these guys' music throughout the show. Today. Both of these talents have toured and played all over the country and world, including the famous Cornerstone Music Festival, which, from 1984 to 2012, was a fantastic Christian music festival that was held annually near Chicago, featured a revolving, diverse lineup of Christian rock bands from across the country. It was sad to see that festival end, but there are some new great festivals that have been gearing up in recent years, including a mortal fest in Ohio. Atomic Opera and its heyday even opened for some secular bands of the day, including Ronnie James Dio, and an unfortunate missed opportunity to open for Soundgarden.
Speaker 1:I traveled to Houston and had the opportunity to spend an evening hanging out with these two legends and talk all things music, faith and creativity. I was really looking forward to this opportunity to talk with these talented musicians and men of faith. These guys have produced some amazing music, but they're incredible thinkers too. I've had opportunity to interview thousands of people over the decades, but as I got ready to start recording this interview with these guys, I realized I was experiencing something I hadn't felt in a very long time before an interview. I was a little nervous. These guys, in different ways and at different times, through their music, their creativity and their faith, had been foundational in my own personal development. It was a little intimidating to sit down and pick their brains. Thankfully, these guys put me at ease and made this a fun conversation. Sit back and enjoy. So let's just get right into it and welcome Frank and Kemper to Creative Christians. Welcome, guys. Thanks for being here today.
Speaker 4:Hey, thanks for having us on the show, man yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's just start right at the beginning. Music how did each of you first really kind of get into music? Playing music, Frank, go for it.
Speaker 4:I was always somewhat obsessed with music. I can remember being very young four or five years old and grabbing a mop handle and singing Elvis songs and my mom coming out from the bedroom going you know, that sounds pretty good. And then I'd stand up in the back of the pickup trucks in the neighborhood and do little concerts, doing like Tony DeFranco and the DeFranco family songs and singing for the girls in the neighborhood. Yeah, so that was my early career, preschool. And then I became obsessed with K-Tel records. No one in my house ever listened to music.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 4:So I had this little farmer in the Dell record player and then I would buy K-Tel records now and then. So they were like just you know, dear Prudence, or Roy Clark, or Fly Robin Fly, I mean just stuff that was playing on the radio. And it wasn't until I got a little bit better record player at some point and my mom and dad bought me the number one record that was out, which was Elton John Rock of the Westies. Not a good record, not really, but it got me interested in good records. And so I kind of became obsessed with just sitting and listening to music and listening to lyrics. And Elton John was definitely very instrumental for me. I didn't know it at the time, but because he had a poet writing his lyrics and then he was sort of a natural song Smith melody maker. That was a really great combination, cool.
Speaker 1:Camper, what about you?
Speaker 2:Well, my mom always listened to the radio and in San Antonio, which is where I grew up, we had this station called KAPE, the Soul of San Antonio, which was like an R&B soul station. That's what I listened to for a long time and I always listened to the radio and liked stuff. I got a little older. My sister wanted an LP on the radio which was a turtles record, and I liked that a bunch. I bought Glenn Campbell's by the time I get the Phoenix album. It was the second album I got.
Speaker 2:And then my father found a harmonica when we were camping somewhere. So an old honer. So I started playing the harmonica and I was in the church choir. Then one night we were doing a choir tour. They wanted to do a thing of oh Happy Day, Edwin Hawkins Singers, which I listened to because that was so great. So then the director said well, we need somebody who can hit a G, a high G. My friend said he was one of the people who was singing. He said well, camper can do that. I sang and, lo and behold, I discovered I could. So then I started singing and this was right about the time when the Jesus movement happened Got to San Antonio and then, not terribly long after that, I started hearing the early guys, the earliest guys, norman and the very first love songs, first record and all that stuff. So then I thought, well, I can kind of say I guess I'd learn how to play an instrument beside the harmonica, because you can't really do both at the same time.
Speaker 2:So I started playing guitar and that's kind of how I got. I mean, then I started writing songs, because I realized there weren't many songs that said the kind of stuff that I cared deeply about and I knew there were people who did that. So that's how I got into that, basically.
Speaker 1:Let me go to the stereotypical question what were the musical influences for each of you? What bands were you listening to as you got more and more into music? What was the most influential on each of y'all early on?
Speaker 2:I was listening to King Crimson, moody Blues yes, all the so-called art rock bands, as well as Early Step and Wolf and Iron Butterfly, stuff like that, as the radio stations began to play those and of course when they first started they really kind of didn't. But when they began to play those and that was right when FM started and they'd play the whole cuts and everything. So those are the bands that I was listening to. Frank, go about it.
Speaker 4:It's very different for me between before the age of 14 and after the age of 14. So before the age of 14, I'm listening to Bob Seeger and Step and Wolf and Aerosmith and Kiss and lots of Elton John, fleetwood Mac, boston, kansas. I mean, I'm very into buying records, have tons of records and just sitting and thinking about what is making this music work and I'm learning how to play some different instruments, but not very well. My family didn't go to church. We weren't raised in church and then at 14, god finds me in our backyard. I end up finding out who Jesus is not too long after that and then I want to start writing songs and I want to communicate what had just happened to me to other people.
Speaker 1:In 2015, frank published his book Joyride a beginning and every end. An intimate, engaging and often humorous look at his life and, more accurately, his faith journey. Joyride has tons of personal stories, including many about atomic opera, making albums and touring An insightful read into Frank's mind, heart and faith. Here's some select excerpts from Frank's encounter with God in his backyard.
Speaker 1:At a young age, I felt quite superior to all the poor, hypnotized masses until I saw God. I don't mean I saw a vision or that. God appeared to me in the flesh. I simply looked up at the stars one night and suddenly could no longer sustain the belief. God wasn't there. I was 14 years old, felt so small. Standing in my backyard I could feel the grass soft as velvet under my feet, the dirt under the grass and the air between myself and the expanse of space. I could sense the microscopic universes making up each atom, which in turn make up everything that is. It all seemed too interconnected to be random. I couldn't convince myself. Given enough time and space, a godless universe could end up generating me staring at the stars, trying to not believe in a god who wasn't there. How could we ever suspect that the universe was without meaning, if it was actually without meaning.
Speaker 1:After I saw God, or felt him see me, I went back inside the house. My family was sitting around the TV watching HBO a new and amazing thing in our world. I was still thinking about God. So I got up and walked over to our bookcase. There was a set of encyclopedias, a dictionary, a copy of I'm Okay, you're Okay, and the Bible. None of these books had been read, except possibly the dictionary for homework.
Speaker 1:I picked up the big white Bible with its padded cover and gold trim, carried it back to the couch and sat down. It was a family Christmas present from my grandma Hart several years before, but it had sat unappreciated until this night. I cracked it open. If you open a big Bible to the center, you could end up in a number of places, but I landed in Psalms.
Speaker 1:What I found was amazing in light of what had just happened in the backyard. Psalm 19, the heavens declare the glory of God and the sky above proclaims his handiwork, day to day pours out speech and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words whose voice is not heard. Their voice goes out through all the earth and their words to the end of the world. I said, hey, listen to this and read the first part out loud to them. Have you ever read the Bible? Of course my mom said this as though the question was an insult. Of course I've read the Bible, but she hadn't read the Bible, not much of it anyway no one in our house had.
Speaker 1:I took the big book upstairs to my bedroom and started in the beginning I was going to get to know this God who wouldn't allow me to not believe in him. So that faith moment in the backyard for you was kind of a light switch, so to speak, not only for your faith but I mean musically as well.
Speaker 4:Oh, it changed everything. All I wanted to do was have conversations about faith with people, try to give them light and hope. I wanted to convince people that God existed and that through Jesus, he loved them. I just wanted to tell everyone that. But it wasn't too long after that that I discovered all kinds of Christian rock that I just loved so much, some of that being Archangel and Kemper, some of that being Larry Norman and Keith Green, two very different approaches. Larry Norman is more provocative. Keith Green's just doing Bible studies and preaching through songs. I'm kind of fascinated with both of those ideas. So yeah, all of the Christian, all of the-.
Speaker 1:Resurrection Band.
Speaker 4:Resurrection Band. Yeah, I love that. Glenn Kaiser just a fantastic influence on me when it comes to so it's hard rock, so that's familiar to me. I'm loving that. He's got the bluesy, raspy voice, so I love that. And he's sort of a combination really between Larry Norman and Keith Green. It's like sometimes he's provocative and clever and interesting and sometimes he's just singing the Psalms.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was listening to for Mad Men Only on the drive up here from Austin and I kept hearing aspects of Resurrection Band in that album and in your voice I mean you're like the second coming of Glenn Kaiser, I think. In some ways. I kind of hear that in that album in particular and I can hear some influences, definitely in the guitar and your performances.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the big, bombastic, bluesy, raspy voices, that's what I always loved. I didn't learn how to do that for a long time, right.
Speaker 1:Did you guys get to play with a lot of other Christian rock artists, perform with them, tour with them or interact with them or work on projects other music projects with them?
Speaker 2:albums. I mean we opened or toured with, in some cases played with a bunch of different bands over the years. I knew Keith Green and Norman and all those guys. I mean when I started there weren't many of us Right and, as a matter of fact, we kind of considered Keith Green to be a latecomer, because by the time he came along there actually was the beginning of CCM.
Speaker 2:When we started we didn't think of playing churches because they wouldn't let us in, because we were playing devil music. But Archangels its first airplay was on rock radio here in Houston and stuff like that, and we were Christians and we looked on that as an opportunity to witness to people and stuff like that. But we didn't think in terms of CCM because it wasn't there, but because we were around. So early on we did meet a lot of people. There was a guy in town, ray Johnson, who had New Earth concerts that I started working with for a while and most of those artists were brought into Houston and a lot of times we'd open for them and so I'd known bunches of them and became really good friends with a number of them.
Speaker 1:Archangel Warrior. How did that album come about? How did that project come about? Were you foundational in forming Archangel?
Speaker 2:I'd had a band called Redemption before that and when we started touring we started touring as Redemption, but then we discovered that there was a band with Salvation Army in the Northeast, a really good band called Redemption, and they had an album out and people were kind of knowing who they were. So we changed the name to Archangel and we were touring and playing a lot and we ultimately played a lot in Houston. That's why we moved here and when we did there was a brand new record label, starsong, at the time and there was a group called Hope of Glory who was kind of our sister band in a lot of ways, did a lot of concerts with them, and one of the guys in there was one of the principals in that record label, in Starsong, and he introduced me to his partner, darrell.
Speaker 1:Darrell is Darrell Harris, who co-founded the Starsong label in 1976 and served as its president for 20 years. Harris' name is synonymous with contemporary Christian music, having been responsible for signing artists like Resurrection Band, petra Newsboys and many, many other well-known CCM artists.
Speaker 2:Darrell came over to my house one night for supper and I had a mountain dalsamer sitting in the corner and he said what is that? I told him, can you play it? And I said yeah. And he said did you write any songs? I said yeah. So I played him like they go down to the sea and ships and a few things. And he said, well, do you have any more? And I said, yeah, I got more songs, but I'd have to play them on guitar. And he said, okay, so I played that.
Speaker 2:And he said, well, we want to sign you. I mean that never, ever happens in the world. That's like totally out of movies or something. I said, well, you can't because I'm in a band and you'd have to sign the band. And he said, well, when are you all playing? I said we'll play in tomorrow night. So him and his partner came out and heard us play and signed us. Because of that they were like, well, do a record. So the songs that I had written and that we were performing, or what became Arkang's when I tend towards the thematic they were arranged fire face and wind face on the LPs back then and I'd become friends with a guy named Jimmy Hudson.
Speaker 2:So, we helped build the studio. He produced his record which I played on, and then he did the production with me and primarily with me and stuff, and we recorded it in Pasadena at the studio that that label, Star Song, owned at the time Riven Dell recorders. So that's how that happened.
Speaker 1:Jimmy Hudson is on a Crystal Sea.
Speaker 2:Yes, beyond the Crystal Sea. Beyond the Crystal Sea, another great, great album as well. He just passed away a couple of months ago.
Speaker 1:He did. I was not aware of that. Sorry to hear about that. Another fantastic artist from the history of Christian music as well.
Speaker 2:When the Arkangel album came out first, I got awarded all these awards that I don't think actually existed Maybe they just created them to give them to me or something and there were articles and stuff that still got them. They talked about the lyrics because they said, well, these lyrics are so poetic. And at the time I realized that most of the bands that would become known as CCM bands or whatever were writing pretty straight ahead lyrics, but the stuff that I was listening to from the mainstream and everything were yes, and all these people that had very poetic turns in their approach.
Speaker 2:So when I started writing about Christianity, I pretty much tried to do that. But it's weird. It's not that way anymore. But when it first started, stuff that would be considered Christian music was really straight ahead, which I thought was pretty freaking boring.
Speaker 1:Your style of music, that medieval kind of old English style, and this kind of Celtic influences in there too. Why did that appeal to you? Why was that an approach that you were interested in pursuing?
Speaker 2:There's two answers to that. One is long before I was into music. I read a lot and all kinds of stuff. When I was in fourth grade I read the very first issues of Tolkien that were officially put out here, and at the end of that I read the appendices and some of those were about runes and stuff like that. Then I realized that there was something of kind of a historical foundation to what he was riffing off of. So then I read everything that was in English about runes by the time I was in sixth grade and there wasn't that much, you know, there were only six or seven books. So then I began realizing why I could study historical stuff about that, and in that I came across the thing of medieval music. I began to read those lyrics and stuff and you know, the early music thing was just beginning back then.
Speaker 2:So you know, I heard Crusader music and all this kind of stuff like that and that interested me a lot and I did a lot of research in that. And then, plus, you know, rock musicians, people who do hard rock especially, tend to be very interested in the musical forms that you know that come along with medieval music and that's because those were largely drawn from the Middle East. So you know, because of, because of those, I guess, twin kind of influences, I liked rock music and like most of those people, I liked, you know, those kind of influences and stuff and so it was really kind of a combination of the historical and I mean most everybody likes that kind of music. Okay, I didn't understand why more people didn't do it. And so that label I was talking about Star Song, they, when they signed the band, part of the deal was a Proviso that I would do a solo album with a lot of those songs that I played for them. So the vigil came along after that.
Speaker 1:I've got here and I love it.
Speaker 2:It's a great album, and that's that's that's why I was interested in my. My degrees are in medieval literature and medieval history.
Speaker 1:Wow, interesting yeah.
Speaker 2:So I, you know, studied a lot about that period.
Speaker 1:Natural extension of that. You told me something about the vigil too. You're working on a sequel to that, is that correct?
Speaker 2:It's been written for since the 80s. I, you know, on and off thought about doing it and something else always came up or something interfered or whatever. So, yeah, I'm producing an album, and when I finished producing this album which shouldn't be too much longer than I'll then I'll I don't know I may do a fund raiser kind of thing, like the crowdfunding or something, or, something, and the quest, which is the sequel to that.
Speaker 2:it's been written for well over 20 years, 30 years probably, wow. And then the throning, which is the third in the trilogies. I guess it's probably more than half written, so fantastic. So you know, if I live long enough, maybe we'll see the quest in the throning.
Speaker 1:Well, I certainly hope so, because the vigil is a wonderful album and another, another classic in your your long discography.
Speaker 3:I rest me in the fall of rocks and trees, of skies and seas. Is hand the wonder draw?
Speaker 1:Touch on Reliquarium. Am I pronouncing that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, reliquarium.
Speaker 1:That album which I told you before. I've just been listening to that first track on repeat. So much Again on the drive here.
Speaker 2:It's the favorite album of mine that I've ever done and I resisted that album. I think I mentioned. My dad was a missionary in India and Africa and he wanted me to do a fundraiser for his ministry. Servants of the king. He wanted me to do a hymns record and I said, dad, the world needs another hymns record, like it needs a hole in the head, because there's a bunch of great ones out there.
Speaker 2:Even ones by heretics like the Mormon Dabernacle Choir. There's great hymns, and he kept hammering me and finally I said, well, okay, I said I won't change the lyrics or anything. I'm not one of these yehous who add stuff to hymns. But I said, if I can arrange it however I want to, and he said yeah. So you know, as I mentioned, you know I'm interest as well in Middle Eastern things and stuff, and so I just started arranging those songs just the way I wanted to. I mean, you know, frank played on a lot of people, but I played most of the things that I can play on there. It was the whole point of it was to raise money for my dad's missionary organization, which it did. He passed away like two years ago, but that's where it came from. I think it was distributed for a short period of time by one of the Christian labels, but it's not one of my better known albums.
Speaker 1:And that's a shame, because it's a fantastic album as well.
Speaker 4:But it's also weird in the best possible way, because Kemper and I have talked about this before. So these are well-known hymns that sort of transcend different cultures. So what would those hymns sound like outside of time, before the throne of God, when all these different people from different cultures show up and sing holy, holy, holy, what would that sound like? So you mentioned that track. That's Kemper's imagination of what that would sound like, because yes, it has the major key melody of the classic hymn but it also has my abstract sort of Middle Eastern guitar solo going out going through the thing. I love that. And then it's got all of the Middle Eastern percussion going on through it. So it's kind of like all of these cultures coming together to make this beautiful noise before the throne of God that transcends any individual culture. I love that.
Speaker 1:Frank, that is an excellent point and that really gets at the heart of why I like to talk to fellow creatives, because that's the type of thing that I love about Christian creatives is being able to come up with things like that that put a new spin on things that have been around forever but give us a new way to look at something.
Speaker 2:I spent time in India with my dad back when in the 90s and so forth, and when I was putting the album together I was trying to blend things to some extent, since it was for his ministry and his ministry was both the Africans and Asians of Indian extraction. So I like the way it worked out. That's why I say it's my favorite record I've done. That's the one I least wanted to do.
Speaker 1:Interesting you fought it yeah.
Speaker 3:Either we'll have, in the morning, our song shall rise to thee Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty God in three persons, blessed Trinity.
Speaker 1:The song shall rise to thee Rel Aquarium is one of Kemper Krab's finest works and he has many great albums, but having listened to it completely six times now since doing this interview, I truly consider it Kemper's masterpiece so far. It is an incredibly rich album of diverse music where you can hear the influences of everything from lead zeppelin, deep purple, pink floyd, resurrection band and others intertwining with Kemper's own musical palette to deliver something truly amazing. Do yourself a favor and pick this album up, listen to it all the way through with really good headphones and hear classic hymns in a fresh new light. The labels of Christian music Kemper, you and I were talking about this before we started rolling. How do you guys feel about that label and do you consider your music Christian music?
Speaker 4:I absolutely loved the label. When I was obsessed with the early Jesus music and Christian rock, and while Kemper was building the legacy of Archangel and Starsong and all of that down here in the Houston area, I was up in Illinois listening to those records and just sitting in my bedroom listening to Archangel and listening to the vigil and Absolutely.
Speaker 2:He's a lot younger than I am.
Speaker 4:Ten years exactly.
Speaker 1:How did yours pass cross?
Speaker 4:I guess it was basically through the King's X guys because they had gotten their. They were from Springfield Missouri where I went to college and I had met them when I was doing music and going to school in Springfield Missouri we're part of the same music scene up there went to the same church and then they came down here and they got signed to Megaforce Atlantic and they were working with Wild Silas Music Works, which is really about three blocks from here.
Speaker 1:Oh really, I was actually wondering where that was at when I was in the book.
Speaker 4:It's like three blocks from here. Cool, I came down here with a band.
Speaker 2:It's called Love in Gray, which was a great band, by the way.
Speaker 4:Are there recordings? I appreciate that. Not of the good stuff, it's not. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:Their, their, their life stuff was much. I mean, I liked their recording stuff, but I really liked their life stuff.
Speaker 4:I was down here and they were having like a an album release party, and so everybody was there and the producer, their record, sam, he said hey, frank, there's someone I think I think you want to meet, and at the time I had long black hair and looked a little bit like a vampire. I was reading Anne Rice, I mean and he took me over to another guy who had long black hair and was dressed all in black and also looked like he probably was reading some Anne Rice.
Speaker 2:I was.
Speaker 4:Anyway, the classics Sam said so, frank, this is Kemper Krab. That was it, and I said Kemper Krab like the Kemper Krab and Kemper being who he is as well, I mean a Kemper Krab. Anyway, I didn't know that his dad was also named Kemper Krab, so that probably informed why he said that. Yes.
Speaker 2:That's how he met and I did. I invite you to church.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So at that point we had been playing around Houston as Love in Gray and what my songs are cryptic theology. They have been for a long time. So people would come up to me and they would ask me about the lyrics, what are you talking about? And I would say well, you know, if you want to talk about the lyrics, we get together on Sunday afternoons and over at my apartment, and so I kind of had a little house church of just people that I met playing in clubs. We had about 25, 30 people that would come to my apartment, my wife and I's apartment, and we did that on Sunday afternoons.
Speaker 4:Well, Kemper was a minister at a church, Christ Church and he probably invited me to church. Also, Sam came to my little house church a couple of times this is Sam Taylor, yeah. And he said so what are you doing with this house church thing? Because you're trying to do a music career and you got this little house church thing going, what are you doing? And he said I think what you need to do is you need to take your whole entire house church and just go to Kemper's church. So we did so. We showed up one Sunday because they also met on Sunday afternoon. Because we were a bunch of night owls, we all played late shows.
Speaker 1:And so these issues typically are. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Interesting we met at that time. The church met at Lutheran High North.
Speaker 2:That's right, I forgot.
Speaker 4:That's not going to intersect for a while, but that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:A seed was planted way back then.
Speaker 2:I've forgotten that.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. So really you all started with more of a friendship bond and then the musician thing kind of developed.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah. So then now we're eating Kentucky Fried Chicken after church and Kemper and I are sitting there talking and I told you that I was reading Anne Rice, but other than Anne Rice and the Bible, I'd really never read a book. And so he's asking me what authors I'm into, and so I really don't read anything other than the Bible. And he's like, oh, we're going to change that. And he started throwing books at me. He still does, so I like to read now.
Speaker 1:Kemper, I'm not as familiar with your family background growing up, so comparing contrast a little bit for me guys. I mean, frank, I know from reading Joy Ride you had a tough beginning, at least compared to you know a lot of people. You had some challenges growing up and you talk about that a lot in your book Joy Ride, which obviously has informed a lot of who you are and your faith as you've grown too over the years. Kemper, did you come from a challenging background or were you kind of growing up in the church? What was yours? Just so I can get a sense.
Speaker 2:It wasn't as weird as Frank's.
Speaker 4:Well, you come from educated people. Yeah, so that's a difference right there, both my parents were educators.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Now my dad did practice magic.
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Interesting and repented. When the Jesus movement thing kind of came to our area he publicly repented and he became a missionary and stuff like that. But really I had a really except for the occasional demon, a really stable family, especially after my dad repented.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:My background was not nearly so riven with the hassles and so forth as Frank's, and I was more or less taken to church all the time. I became a Christian when I was 11. So you know it was very different from Frank's.
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, and that's kind of my sense. So that's why I wanted to ask that, because it's kind of interesting that you all bonded. I mean, besides the music factor, of course, did you sense some of that? Did you learn some of that about Frank early on and did that kind of help?
Speaker 2:I didn't know any of that stuff about his background, I just liked him. And at the time Frank never changed his expression, which I especially liked, you know. I mean just didn't change the expression, which I liked a great deal. And so did Ryan Bursinger, who played in Tom MacArthur with us later, but no, I just liked him. I liked the way he thought about stuff. I loved his music, you know, and I just liked him. I mean we were friends, I guess from then on, even when I, you know, wasn't playing with him or anything which didn't come till later.
Speaker 1:Frank, talking a little bit about your background again. What was that like growing up, especially now as you kind of reflect back from this point in time? And how did those experiences of your life prompt you to write joyride? Why was that important for you to write, just kind of your life story up till 2006 or so, I guess?
Speaker 4:Is it? I mean? I say that it's just me sharing the gospel with people and using myself as the illustrations.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 4:I'm just the illustration for all of my points and it's not a blow-by-blow account of my life, but it does kind of follow my faith and it follows a beginning and every end. So that idea comes from the idea that God is always preparing us for our next adventure in whatever we're facing now. So what is he? He was always preparing me for something. He was always preparing me for that next thing. He still is. Another possible title for the book would be Almost Successful.
Speaker 3:That's close. I've always believed it. I even see it. I'm not hard to confuse. A twist of a secret is just out of reach. It's where I'm going to.
Speaker 1:I'm not just here to breathe and make a guide. How did the Tomahkoper come about?
Speaker 4:So we moved down here with Love and Gray. And the reason we moved down here was there was a drummer named Alan Doss. He was a good friend of mine. I met him right at the moment that he graduated high school and he was in my college band. It was called Fire Escape, so we were playing high schools and roller rinks and the occasional club at first, and that's what the fire escape. And then he came down here and he convinced me that if we were going to have success in music, that I should move out of Missouri and come to Houston with the hope that we would work with the Wild Silas Music Production Company. So he was our drummer.
Speaker 4:And then there was another guitar player, eric, and the three of us were Love and Gray. We came down here, we did that and we were doing okay, this was the band that Kemper would come out and see, and that's when we became friends and it was. I mean, I really liked it, but nobody would sign us. Hold on one second, let's see if we can let that train go by.
Speaker 4:What's wrong with the sound of trains, man? Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like that. Alan would love it. He'd be telling us what kind it was.
Speaker 4:Just from the whistle.
Speaker 1:My dad loved trains too. As we paused for the train to go by, conversation continued, touching briefly on influential Christian rock bands and their albums, in particular one Daniel Amos.
Speaker 4:I really love when they are obsessed with the Beatles. That's my favorite, Daniel Amos stuff, yeah, yeah, motorcycle. I don't know. Is that a Beatles obsessed record? It is.
Speaker 1:That's one of their you know later more famous ones. I've been going back through the early stuff again, but yeah, motorcycle and I don't know if Calhoun had a little bit of Beatles vibe too?
Speaker 4:I guess it does. I started with horrendous disc and I think it went into the next one, and so it doesn't start off very Beatles, but it gets very Beatles before the record's over. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What about so much of the stuff?
Speaker 1:you guys probably have opinions on. You know a lot of the. You know the remastered stuff today. That's really you know, because a lot of the Christian music they don't have the masters anymore. I know, like Star Song at least I've heard the rumors. They often, you know, once they were bought out by secular labels. A lot of the masters were just trashed or ditched or lost or whatever. So when they remaster a lot of this it's going back to a vinyl album or a CD master of some sort and then remastering it from there. What's your opinion on some of that stuff that's really remastered for these digital distribution means rather than they're getting better at it?
Speaker 4:Yeah, they like the way records sound in the late 70s and then they started running the recording, just the audio. It didn't sound good anymore. In about the mid-80s they invented, they discovered and invented digital reverb and I didn't like a recording for 10 years. Yeah, there's just so many bad recordings. It kind of seems like every format had like the thing that, ooh, we can do this now, so then they overdid it. Yeah, and it seems like they're kind of figuring out no, just let it sound warm. It seems like they're figuring that out.
Speaker 1:You guys have both been in different bands, worked together with a lot of different artists and musicians. What are some of the challenges and what are some of the joys of collaborating with other fellow creatives?
Speaker 4:fellow musicians. Honestly, I think that we're like two people that that's not really our thing. Really, we are very much like. We do what we want to do the way we want to do it Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, my philosophy is get people around you that you trust what they do and tell them generally what you want to do, and it normally comes out good. But I don't think we have much hassle in doing that.
Speaker 4:Neither one of us are really jam band people. We don't really like to sit in and jam like that, right, that's not what we enjoy. We like to create something, to very deliberately write it and make it shape it into what it's going to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I totally agree with that.
Speaker 4:All arrangements, whether they're going to be performed live or whether we're crafting it in the studio. We know what we want and we do that.
Speaker 1:What's the writing process for you? Is it lyrics first, music first and then? How do you meld those two? What's that process like?
Speaker 2:I think it works both ways Sometimes, you have a lyric or a part of a lyric in your head and it just falls into some sort of musical expression. Sometimes you write a melody or whatever and then you fill it in with lyrics. I don't really have a. The only thing I think of is there are times when I can't think what to do and I kind of free associate stuff.
Speaker 4:Sometimes I have lyric ideas and I'll just write out lyrics to other people's songs or to songs that I've already written. Other times I have music ideas and I'll record just a little snippet of this or a little snippet of that or a little chord progression. I always have a keyboard sitting up on my desk or have a guitar that I can grab so that I can just keep little snippets of things. So then I kind of have two piles I've got a pile of music ideas and I've got a pile of lyric ideas and sometimes songs show up fully formed and sometimes I just make myself write the whole thing in my head before I ever try to play it. That's an interesting experience. Three days of darkness was written that way. We begin again was written that way. Sometimes it's just go with a visceral feeling. Joyride was written that way. There was no thought with Joyride, it just happened.
Speaker 3:The end. Right now I am broken, that is for sure. Some days I'm not quite as focused, yet I only know that I don't know. Die high. When I am in the right groove, die high. It's all that I can do. Some days are the last days, some days are the first. Some people die for hunger yeah. Some people live for thirst. Die high.
Speaker 1:When I am in the right groove, die high. Was that one of the most requested?
Speaker 4:Yes, I think it was one that Derek Schulman particularly liked. He actually insisted that we use the demo on the final record, that's right.
Speaker 1:I was just reading that, Talking about that writing process you mentioned in your book, New Dreams was one of your first, as you say, real songs that you wrote. How did that process develop for you? How did you grow as a musician?
Speaker 4:and lyricist I'm going to blur your categories a little bit. Sure, I think that's a huge, the thing that he really helped me with as a friend, as a songwriter, as an influence. He came to see my band all the time Firescape but those were Keith Green songs, those were Petra songs, those were me preaching through rock music songs. And Doug said hey, have you ever like maybe not so much just like shove the answer at people, but maybe just kind of inside a question, like just make them think of it and then maybe they'll arrive at the conclusion? So that was Doug. So, like Doug was, he said I really love your lyrics, I love your songs, but they're so preachy and I can't get past that and I would really like, I'd love to know what would happen if you just kind of let it be a little more poetic, a little more abstract. So then here comes the next 20 years, wow. And then more poetic and more abstract.
Speaker 1:Speaking of Doug and of course you mentioned the King's X crew before. You have a good association with them or have over the years. You mentioned one way, but how was Doug influential for you and your development as an artist?
Speaker 4:Well, there was the thing that I just told you. And then also he loves to play music for people. He has. At the time he had 17 million albums just lining his walls in his apartment, so I would just go over there and he would just play. He's so excited he would just he'd play one song after another song after another song, stuff. I'd never heard just all this obscure stuff. So that was fun. Like I said, we went to church together, this tiny little church in Springfield, missouri, and I actually became closer friends with Jerry the drummer, and his wife Grace. And Jerry is a poet. Like he just writes this complete beat poetry stuff. Just we would riff on that and just talk philosophy all night. And then, interestingly, when we moved to Texas, my wife and I became like real close with Ty and his wife, ty and Tamer. So I've kind of ran the at different seasons of my life I've been close to the different people and I've probably sustained my friendship with Doug the most we're still. We still talk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, and I know Kemper obviously has been a kind of a mentor for you too, in ways.
Speaker 4:Oh, absolutely so. Like I said, I hadn't read anything but the Bible and and Rice. When I met him and I think that's literally true and he started, he wanted to talk to me about my songs, about my lyrics, and he's like who are you reading? Where's this stuff coming from? It's like it's not coming from anywhere. So then we started talking about all this stuff. My approach to thinking became much more theological after I met Kemper, and I'd already gone to school to be a pastor and a missionary, so like. But after meeting Kemper, that's really when my education for a theological framework of approaching life Art, music, friendship, everything that that's all Kemper.
Speaker 3:Hey.
Speaker 1:So how did this band come to be and what has that experience been like for you? Because that was something you wanted to do early on was to be in a successful band and, at the same time, share the gospel.
Speaker 4:I think that's true. What I wanted to do is I wanted to share the gospel and I wanted to do that through music, because music had informed me, it had formed me and I wanted to be able to do that for other people. Music had made me consider things deeply and I wanted to provoke other people to the same kind of experiences. So that's what I wanted to do. Love and Gray was doing that, love and Gray. I was the bass player in Love and Gray. I was a lead singer and I was a bass player. I liked Love and Gray. I thought Love and Gray was great, but nobody was interested in picking us up, except for Metal Blade. Metal Blade, they definitely wanted to pick us up, but that was a little small.
Speaker 4:It wasn't the scale that we were hoping to go for Gotcha, we ended up on Metal Blade, yeah, so I knew what I was talking about. I mean, the scale of Metal Blade is, yes, you get to make a record, end of story, got it. That's just how that works out, right? Yeah, and I wanted to do more. I wanted to do all the things. I wanted to stand up in front of people and share this message and this music with a wide audience. I wanted to be on the road forever. I wanted that to never end. So that's what I was hoping for.
Speaker 4:Anyway. So nobody would touch Love and Gray, and Sam asked me if I would be interested in starting fresh. So that's where the idea of starting a new band with new people came from. The other guys in Love and Gray also were not believers. He thought that was going to end up being a big problem for me. Eventually, Yep might have, I don't know, but I do know that we ran the course and we had no other options on the table. We could keep playing around Houston as Love and Gray. We could have done that, or we could try this new thing that somebody wanted to put their shoulder behind. So we did that.
Speaker 1:How'd the name come about? Atomic Opera.
Speaker 4:Well, have you ever been in a session where you're trying to come up with a name for something? It doesn't matter what you're trying to name, so at first you just throw out some names and oh okay, I brought some names, Maybe Kemper brought some and Tim has some names, and so nobody likes them.
Speaker 4:But everybody has some ideas. And then you start riffing on names and now everything sounds like a name and it's just ridiculous. So you're going to name yourself the ridiculous pants band. Everything is a name, everything is stupid. But then you just keep writing down all the ideas. And somebody had said underground opera as a potential band name, somebody else had said Atomic Eve and I said Atomic Opera, and then we did 250 more names because nobody liked that either. But we came back to it. I know I was sitting in church the next day at Christ Church. Once we had the little chapel there in the Heights. I was sitting next to Doug Pinnock and he handed me a note. He whispered in my ear. He said this should be the name of your band and it was poundhound, like nope, but it was the name of his band. He did it. He used that later.
Speaker 1:I was just looking at one of those albums too.
Speaker 3:That's very cool.
Speaker 1:Well, if Frank ain't gonna use it, then I'll use it.
Speaker 4:That's right.
Speaker 1:Exactly All right. So then you get to bake for Mad Men only. What was that experience like and how do you feel about that? Your initial album.
Speaker 4:It was an amazing experience, so we got to do everything. It was at Rivendell recorders that we mentioned earlier, which was a beautiful studio. It was all designed to kind of look like Rivendell, so it was something else. Does that still exist? Nope, no, it was a real budget, and we were able to spend a month going to work and just making the best record we could make. It was great, are you?
Speaker 4:proud of that it was a great experience Proud of that album? Yeah, I am. There's always things, there's always things. My biggest regret on that record I'm just gonna ruin the record for you ready was we had it mixed.
Speaker 4:We liked the way it sounded and I didn't want it to have the King's Egg sound, which is a lot of top end on the bass. And I said, no, I've got a tar player, jonathan Marshall. He's the top end on the bass, like him and Jonas. They create that wall of sound that Doug does with his 12 string bass. They do that, but it takes two people to do it. So then the record label came back and they said no, no, no, it's got to have that Houston sound, it's got to have that top end on the bass. And so they remixed it and I Jonas's playing didn't lend to that. And what sounded great when we had sort of a classic, you know round tone, p-bass, grand Funk, railroad kind of sound, that was great. But then when you start adding all this high end every now and then you hear this woodblock sound and it's just so annoying because it wasn't there. It wasn't there and it's not Jonas's fault.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Favorite song of that album For me.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, you have kids.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4:How many kids you have Two. Which one's your favorite? Ah, good point, probably New Dreams. That's the one that just kind of came together music and lyrics and it had some interesting philosophical ideas that could lead to good conversation, which is what the music's all about for me and at the same time I thought it just kind of came together.
Speaker 1:Justice, which also was the first music video y'all shot as a band. Is that correct?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's true Also. So half of For Mad Men Only was written after we got signed. Like half the record was written with us showing up at a little rehearsal space writing songs on purpose. Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 4:So we wrote a lot of those things as a band, including Justice.
Speaker 1:All right, Penguin Dust, which initially had a controversial cover, is that right I?
Speaker 4:guess. I guess. I mean, my wife went to the beach with our godson and she was taking pictures and had this really cute picture of our godson playing on the beach and I thought, man, that make a cool cover. Anyway, at the Cornerstone Music Festival some guy was running around ripping all our posters down, came and threw them in my face. Oh, you're kidding.
Speaker 1:How was Penguin Dust kind of the next step up for Atomic Opera?
Speaker 4:We had written a lot of those songs during the pre-production for For Mad Men Only, so a bunch of these were songs that were purposely going to be on the second record. But then we lost our deal because the company folded while we were on the road and that was painful. And then my band they didn't want to continue without a deal. What's the point? So then it was just me, and so Kemper and Ryan, they came over and we just made the record, and Mark Jerry Gaskell actually originally played drums on that record on Penguin Dust, but then a digital malfunction and the tracks didn't work. So we find this out when we're mixing.
Speaker 2:I forget.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and Mark Poindexter, atomic Opera's drummer from the first record. He just happened to be in town and so I said why don't you come by the studio? We had written the songs together so he knew the songs. So he just showed up, played all of them just in one bang out session. So pretty cool, fantastic. And Kemper, he's all over that record. So Penguin Dust is really the first record that Kemper is officially in the band Mandolin singing and.
Speaker 1:So how did you come to be part of the band? Did they ask you or you just kind of developed?
Speaker 2:At the time I was playing with Kademan's call.
Speaker 4:Who were also on the record.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Frank was like well, you know, I'm the only guy here and everything he said what would you think about? I said, well, that'd be great. So I mean, there were gigs that we did. I think we did one opening for the call, wasn't it?
Speaker 4:Michael Bean, michael Bean.
Speaker 2:And it was just me and Frank. I had a Mandolin, he had his guitar, and Tomic Opera was two people, wow.
Speaker 1:So we've kind of got a mini-Atomic Opera reunion here today?
Speaker 4:Sure, absolutely, and we have one every Sunday, if that's the case.
Speaker 1:Atomic Opera. Apples and Oranges is kind of a I'm sorry, what Apples, which is not really an official album per se. It's kind of a collection of some things that had already been recorded or produced, or correct me on that.
Speaker 4:It's an official album. Okay, apples and Oranges. Oh, I'm sorry, alpha and Oranges.
Speaker 1:Which is of course a play my bad.
Speaker 4:It's, of course, a play on Apples and Oranges. Those are all songs that were recorded for from admin, only that we didn't use. That's what it was Okay, but no, I think it makes a nice album yeah.
Speaker 1:I've only listened to that one a little bit, so I apologize. And plus, my eyes are not working well today. Atomic Opera's Gospel Cola it's still the latest one you've put out, correct, I guess.
Speaker 2:So yeah, atomic Opera yeah.
Speaker 1:This is actually the first one I started listening to. And tell me what that one's about.
Speaker 4:I mean for sure. The title song, Gospel Cola, comes from the idea of a little bit of a criticism of the CCM. The criticism is that too much of it was just packaged to sell to Christians at Bible bookstores and it wasn't a true expression of anybody's. It's not something they really wanted to say musically or lyrically, it's just something they thought somebody else would wanna listen to. That is so much the opposite of anything that Kemper and I are about at all. It's like we're gonna do something because we love it and because we have it to say musically, lyrically. We're not doing this for anyone else and that's propaganda or cola, I don't know. It's just, it's not. It's not a make something that you like for your own reasons, have something to say that is interesting to you, tell jokes that you think are funny. So it was a criticism of that. But that's just, I don't know. That's just really one song on the record.
Speaker 1:Right, I love doxology too, and Jesus Junk opening track. It's great, great one to kickstart it off. I love that one a lot.
Speaker 4:Jesus Junk is the gospel cola song. That is the one. Yes, I love that. The bridge by some lyrics of Kemper's. The bridge in that because he goes to the more medieval idea of the propaganda the thigh bone of the saint, you know the whole thing where they were doing relics.
Speaker 1:If it summed up your atomic opera experience, what does that mean to you?
Speaker 4:I mean, atomic opera is an artful expression of a hard rock band and I think that's a perfect platform for poetry and the message of an angry prophet. I just think that's the perfect platform for that.
Speaker 1:Is atomic opera done?
Speaker 4:I don't think so Okay good.
Speaker 1:["will I Wake Up From this Sleeping Dream"]. ["will I Wake Up From this Sleeping Dream"].
Speaker 3:Will I wake up from this sleeping dream? Will I wake up from this sleeping dream? Dragon smoke rings, mother reach for me, scratching shadows on my childhood sleep. An endless opening. What may be will be On me. Mercy on me. On me, mercy on me, mercy on me. On me, mercy, sleep for seven years, afraid of my dreams, angry voices.
Speaker 1:You've gone on, of course, and done some solo work since then too Human Liturgy, which that first track, again kind of like Kemper's Reliquarium I've been listening to on repeat too I really love and you're gonna have to help me, because I know this is from the Bible but Ifafa, ifafa, thank you I love that track. Oh my gosh, that one's been on repeat for me now too. Human Liturgy, great, great album too. Thanks. What are your thoughts on the music industry today from your perspectives, where you stand now as artists who've had, you mean?
Speaker 1:the Christian, yeah, I guess let's say the Christian music industry, since that's kind of again that label that gets applied.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think it's more like the ghetto than it's ever been. Really how so? Because it's collapsed into itself. It used to at least try to convince itself that it was reaching the world, that it was doing evangelism, but it's not about that anymore. I mean, there's certainly a place for legitimate worship music to be written in a contemporary form, and I think that's fine and everything. But a lot of it is just entertainment for the troops in the church, which I just think it's ghetto music, it's music for the. Like I said, worship music has to be that way. Nobody's going to write worship music, but the Christians, hopefully. But the rest of it is I don't know. It seems to me like what Gospel Cola was about, that it's people saying stuff that they think people want them to say, and I just think that's an insult to the Creator. Nicely put.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's become a soundtrack for mega churches, or churches that want to be mega churches, and the lyrics are what they think people want to hear and sing. And where is the ache of the artist who actually wants to say something? Where's the psalmist who is crying out to the Lord? Where is that?
Speaker 1:Excellent points, guys. Briefly, I know you all are more than just musicians. Just Not to minimize that, what are some of the other creative endeavors you guys have been in? I know you've both written books. Of course we've been talking about Joy Ride. I should mention Kemper's Liberation Front, which he graciously gave me a copy of today. So I look forward to reading that, but I know from seeing other reviews online it's a very intriguing, challenging book that a lot of people love. But tell me about again some of the other creative endeavors you guys have been in. I know you're more than musicians.
Speaker 4:Don't be afraid of that book. It is not a challenging book.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 4:It is a very accessible book. I mean challenging in a good way. That is Kemper's philosophy of the church as it exists on earth, and it's great. I look forward to reading it. You'll love it yeah.
Speaker 2:I hope so. I did try to write it to where it would be accessible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what was the inspiration for writing that?
Speaker 2:I had been asked if I ever talked to high school or college kids and I said yeah. And so they said, well, we want you to come to do a week to this Baptist church from Arkansas. And they said, if you could do that, what would you do it on? I said I'd do it on ecclesiology. And they said really. And I said yeah. I said you know, I said there's plenty of ways to know how to get saved and all that kind of stuff like that. But why you should get saved is kind of missing in the equation. And I said I think that people get very excited if they know what the church really is. So then I went and taught that and it was an unbelievable response to that for these kids. And they went back and taught it to their church and their church erupted in some sort of revival. And then I got asked to do it another place and I thought, well, I guess I'll write this down. That's the long and short of it.
Speaker 1:I look forward to reading. It Sounds very, very good. Anything, any other creative endeavors that you guys want to talk about, of course.
Speaker 4:I have other books that I need to write. I write a sermon every Sunday. True, that's a creative endeavor. Yes, it is Podcast. I've got this podcast that I pick up now and then throughout the year. Right now it's called Frank Thoughts.
Speaker 1:I love it. That's a very Frank, appropriate title to you. One would think, yes, frankly, let's talk about that. What are you guys doing today? What are you involved in? How did you end up in the Lutheran church?
Speaker 4:I had a video production company for a while doing very similar things to what you do. Tim Right and a church out here in Katie called Crosspoint was looking to buy land and build on that land and they hired my company to make a video about why they wanted to do it, to sell it to their congregation and to sell it to the investors. So I made their video and when they came over to my office to look at cuts and to do some voiceovers and do other things that you do, we were gearing up to do some medieval Christmas concerts. I gave them a Kemper Krab medieval Christmas CD and they liked it and then we played a medieval Christmas concert at Crosspoint that year and the next year and the next year.
Speaker 4:And then they were always doing special songs and I think they were doing a Pete Townsend song and they contacted Kemper and asked if he would come front that song and he did. And then a few weeks later they were doing a U2 song and they asked Kemper to come front it again and he goes. Eh, I don't know if I could pull off Bono, but Frank could. So then I went out and sang where the streets have no name. It went well, and they hired me to be their music guy and then I was there for 11 years.
Speaker 1:And I remember interviewing you for a video during that time. Yeah, probably that was 15 years ago or something.
Speaker 4:That's how I became LCMS Lutheran and then Kemper was one of the people that suggested to me that I might consider planting a church for lots of reasons, and I said I'll think about that. Would you be interested in doing it with me? And he did, and he is, and we do.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. So what's that like today, guys, you know what's happening in church and why is this something you both you know.
Speaker 2:Thousands, save mains heal. Four or five got the baptism. No, I don't know, I'm just messing.
Speaker 1:Why is this important for you?
Speaker 2:Well, I told Frank that I would only be interested in coming and doing this and it was just kind of a pro forma kind of statement on my part because he already knew this.
Speaker 2:So I said I only interested in doing it if it's not funny, baloney stuff like goes on in most churches, lcms not, was standing.
Speaker 2:I mean just generally speaking and of course I knew it wasn't going to be that way that it would be. I think the word everybody goes for is transparent and not have to pretend to be somebody else when you get in the pulpit In front of the congregation or your counseling people or whatever. And I think in many ways that our church has accomplished that. It draws a certain type of person, people who you know don't know Jesus from JoJo the monkey boy and hear about it for the first time in that way and EBOs, evangelical burnouts who have given up on the institutional church, are drawn. So our congregation you know the core of it of course were people who came over with Frank when he started the church, who were already established, you know Lutheran believers and stuff like that. But that was a little core and it's growing and continuing to grow with people who are outside the normal pale, I think of who ends up joining churches.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, we have a vision for what we want the church to be eventually, and that's not where we are. And so I'm just frustrated that we're not where we ultimately want to be, but I'm very thankful for where we are and what God is allowing us to do now too. And we just baptized an entire family last week Wow, beautiful. Just all the time people are coming in and they really they have not heard the message of Jesus. See, this is my frustration those churches on every corner and people think they've tried Jesus, they think they've tried the church and it didn't work. They tried it, it didn't work. And I just want to say to anyone who is hearing me say that you probably haven't tried Jesus, you probably haven't heard the gospel, and it will change your life if you do hear it, if you do listen, if you repent and believe, it will change your life and it will give you hope like you've never known. And so that's why we do it Amen.
Speaker 1:Creativity and faith. This show is all about how, for each of you, is that, as I described, that intersection of creativity and faith, your talents, why is that so important for each of you in your lives, that combination of faith and creativity?
Speaker 2:If you are a creative and you're a Christian, I don't see any other option. The foundation of Christianity, of knowing Christ, is living life as a Christian. And if you've been made to be a creative, then it seems to me that it would be an insult to the God who made you not to express your creativity, and there's no other context, if you're a Christian, other than to be some sort of interaction between that.
Speaker 4:So the idea that I got from Kemper many, many, many years ago is that God is the Creator and we're all sub-creators. We're only creative in as much as we're reflecting Him as the Creator. So if you're going to reflect God as a believer in God, well part of that worship is going to be creating things in His creation. So, whatever that looks like for you, do that honestly, Do that with your voice. He saved you. He called you to be His disciple. He didn't call you to pretend to be some other disciple. So use the voice that you have and say the things that you have to say. And if you do that with finger paintings, great.
Speaker 4:If you do that with music, cool. If you do that with humor and jokes, fantastic. But the world is just, it's all out there. And so what is creativity? Again, stealing all this from Kemper, it's telling the truth about the world as we experience it. If you reflect the truth about the world, then you can talk about anything and you can express anything. Just don't lie, Just lying about it when it becomes phony and false and cheese and painful.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter what you do. I mean I think it's kind of a false dichotomy Creatives, non-creatives there's no such thing as a non-creative. The question is, how's the creativity? If you're a mathematician, you know, you talk about elegant equations and so forth. If you're a scientist, I mean all those kind of things you can't really extricate creativity from living, any more than you can extricate beauty from the Holy Trinity. I agree so not to reign on the calling ourselves creatives, because it's how we say well, we're artists or whatever. But really creativity is we're made in the image of God, and that's pretty creative in itself.
Speaker 1:Well, well put. Kemper, Frank, thank you both for talking today and coming on the show. I've enjoyed this a lot. We've gotten into stuff. There's so much more to talk about and I know we've gone on a little bit more at length here anyway, but I really, really appreciate the opportunity to sit down and talk with you guys. This is fascinating. You've got my brain going. We might have a song to play us out here. Cool, Thanks guys. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this is live without a net, so if you get stuff wrong, it's all part of the experience. That's true. Love is only love Song off of the human liturgy record and it's about how love is how we treat people. That's what love is. It's not like mystical eminitions that just kind of radiate from us to other people, but it's about love is how we treat people.
Speaker 3:It is a deep breath, you only feel it when you breathe, and it is a deep word. You only feel it when you breathe and it is a circular motion. You only have it when it returns and it is a raging fire love. You only feel it when it burns. It's not a reason for our life, it's not a feeling. It doesn't mean you cannot feel it, it's not a religious thing.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean you can't believe in it. We trade our life for it. Love, you live and die for it to grow. We'll stand and fight for it. You only hold it if you let go. We believe that it is the meaning of our life. Love is everything and love is nothing more than love. Love is only love. It is not God and love is not romance and love. You cannot make it love, you cannot fake it. Love is something that we all must do you love. We all believe in it. We all have need of it. We believe that it is the reason for our life. Love is everything and love is nothing more than love. Love is only Love, is only Love, is only Love, is nothing more than love, is only love, is only love.
Speaker 1:That does it for this episode of Creative Christians. My guests today have been Kemper Krab and Frank Hart. You can find out more about Kemper and his music at KemperKrabnet, and more about Tomik Opera, frank and his solo work at FrankHartcom, as well as info about their church, new Church at NewChurch, love, love. All this info and more details will be available in the show notes or the description for this episode. Thanks for joining us. Go to Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast distributor. Be sure to subscribe to catch each and every new episode.
Speaker 1:After listening, take a moment to rate the show. If you're really feeling generous, I'd love it if you left a brief review as well. Let me and others know what you like about Creative Christians. Thank you for all of you who have already been leaving feedback and reviews. It is very much appreciated. You can also email me directly with your feedback, comments or questions at tim at timristocom. I'd love to hear from you. I'm Tim Risto. Until next time, stay creative and stay in God's Word Blessings. Creative Christians is produced by yours truly, tim Risto. Special thanks to my guests, frank Hart and KemperKrab, and to Memorial Lutheran Church and Katie for graciously allowing us to record in their sanctuary, as always a shout out to my lovely and supportive wife, tracy Risto. Creative Christians is an audio production of Tim Risto Productions. Visit timristocom to learn more. I'm Tim Ristocom.